Another Sugar complaint thread?
Shocking
The End of an Era...We are Shutting Down the Messageboard
The messageboard is now in read-only mode and no new posts or topics can be created. We will leave the messageboard up for historical purposes, but you will not be able to make new posts or comment on existing ones.
We have started a Discord server and hope that you all will join us on there. Technology has changed over the years and maintaining the messageboard has become somewhat of a pain in the butt and Discord offers many features for users, the main one being a very polished mobile app.
We really hope you all will join us on Discord and think you will like the platform. Use the invite link below to join.
https://discord.gg/skisoutheast
The messageboard is now in read-only mode and no new posts or topics can be created. We will leave the messageboard up for historical purposes, but you will not be able to make new posts or comment on existing ones.
We have started a Discord server and hope that you all will join us on there. Technology has changed over the years and maintaining the messageboard has become somewhat of a pain in the butt and Discord offers many features for users, the main one being a very polished mobile app.
We really hope you all will join us on Discord and think you will like the platform. Use the invite link below to join.
https://discord.gg/skisoutheast
*BEWARE of Sugar Mountain Price Gouging*
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teledave
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Plans for 2015: To ski more than you
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If some how, some day, Wolf would invest in snow managment like cat's done the past 5-6 years, they'd own sugar.
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boredtoo
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@hnhbaxter 197500Boredtoo - I have to disagree. the overhead per visitor at the SE areas must be staggering compaired to areas in the west. Less snow days; 90% machine made snow as opposed to natural snow in the west; privately owned land on the SE equals property tax issues vs. many western areas are leased from the forestry service for pennies on the dollar; visitors per acre on trails in the SE as compaired to many western areas (think rapid reduction of snow base). To wrap it up something tells me the cost of operating Sugar has got to be much larger than we can even imagine.[/QUOTE wrote:
You make some good points, however I still don't believe that those differences equate to the thin spread between the prices for lift tickets. Setting aside what the market will bare and just looking at overhead, while it's true that snowmaking is required over an enitre season in the southeast, it is also used in the west during early season periods and on a much more massive scale. Further, the western resorts operate all of their equipment (many more lifts, snowplows, ski patrol, facilities, etc.) over a longer period than the southeast (the cost of water and electricity is greater in the west than the southeast). It's true that the forestry land is leased for pennies on the dollar, but at the same time there is much more land to lease and the cost is comparable to paying taxes on a vastly smaller tract in a rural county in North Carolina. It's fairly easy to check property taxes as they are public records, as is the lease rate the forestry service charges. In the end, I think the best explanation of the prices is simply that enough people are willing to pay them to sustain the operations and make a profit. One might argue that if we really want to thin the crowds out, it would be better to raise the prices more.
You make some good points, however I still don't believe that those differences equate to the thin spread between the prices for lift tickets. Setting aside what the market will bare and just looking at overhead, while it's true that snowmaking is required over an enitre season in the southeast, it is also used in the west during early season periods and on a much more massive scale. Further, the western resorts operate all of their equipment (many more lifts, snowplows, ski patrol, facilities, etc.) over a longer period than the southeast (the cost of water and electricity is greater in the west than the southeast). It's true that the forestry land is leased for pennies on the dollar, but at the same time there is much more land to lease and the cost is comparable to paying taxes on a vastly smaller tract in a rural county in North Carolina. It's fairly easy to check property taxes as they are public records, as is the lease rate the forestry service charges. In the end, I think the best explanation of the prices is simply that enough people are willing to pay them to sustain the operations and make a profit. One might argue that if we really want to thin the crowds out, it would be better to raise the prices more.
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boredtoo
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@hnhbaxter 197500 wrote:Boredtoo - I have to disagree. the overhead per visitor at the SE areas must be staggering compaired to areas in the west. Less snow days; 90% machine made snow as opposed to natural snow in the west; privately owned land on the SE equals property tax issues vs. many western areas are leased from the forestry service for pennies on the dollar; visitors per acre on trails in the SE as compaired to many western areas (think rapid reduction of snow base). To wrap it up something tells me the cost of operating Sugar has got to be much larger than we can even imagine.
You make some good points, however I still don't believe that those differences equate to the thin spread between the prices for lift tickets. Setting aside what the market will bare and just looking at overhead, while it's true that snowmaking is required over an enitre season in the southeast, it is also used in the west during early season periods and on a much more massive scale. Further, the western resorts operate all of their equipment (many more lifts, snowplows, ski patrol, facilities, etc.) over a longer period than the southeast (the cost of water and electricity is greater in the west than the southeast). It's true that the forestry land is leased for pennies on the dollar, but at the same time there is much more land to lease and the cost is comparable to paying taxes on a vastly smaller tract in a rural county in North Carolina. It's fairly easy to check property taxes as they are public records, as is the lease rate the forestry service charges. In the end, I think the best explanation of the prices is simply that enough people are willing to pay them to sustain the operations and make a profit. One might argue that if we really want to thin the crowds out, it would be better to raise the prices more.
You make some good points, however I still don't believe that those differences equate to the thin spread between the prices for lift tickets. Setting aside what the market will bare and just looking at overhead, while it's true that snowmaking is required over an enitre season in the southeast, it is also used in the west during early season periods and on a much more massive scale. Further, the western resorts operate all of their equipment (many more lifts, snowplows, ski patrol, facilities, etc.) over a longer period than the southeast (the cost of water and electricity is greater in the west than the southeast). It's true that the forestry land is leased for pennies on the dollar, but at the same time there is much more land to lease and the cost is comparable to paying taxes on a vastly smaller tract in a rural county in North Carolina. It's fairly easy to check property taxes as they are public records, as is the lease rate the forestry service charges. In the end, I think the best explanation of the prices is simply that enough people are willing to pay them to sustain the operations and make a profit. One might argue that if we really want to thin the crowds out, it would be better to raise the prices more.
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EastCoaster
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boredtoo;197667 wrote:
it is also used in the west during early season periods and on a much more massive scale.
Which western resorts have a larger snowmaking infrastructure than somewhere like Winterplace, Snowshoe, or Wisp?
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marzski
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@EastCoaster 197674 wrote:Which western resorts have a larger snowmaking infrastructure than somewhere like Winterplace, Snowshoe, or Wisp?
I think Northstar at Tahoe opened mainly on manmade this season. But haven't been there in a long time. Just opened a new fancy hotel. I imagine they wouldn't only cover the equivalent of WP or Snowshoe.
I think Northstar at Tahoe opened mainly on manmade this season. But haven't been there in a long time. Just opened a new fancy hotel. I imagine they wouldn't only cover the equivalent of WP or Snowshoe.
2023-24: Wolf Creek in Dec, Massanutten in Jan, Feb; GT, Big Sky; Crested Butte; Alta/Snowbird in April.
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KneeDeep
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Hey Rob, I have no idea of the actual numbers, but I would guess a place like Keystone, Breck, WP, or Copper has pretty wide-spread snowmaking capabilities that would rival Snowshoe.
When's the last time anyone knew a guy named Gunther that was honest and nice?
When's the last time anyone knew a guy named Gunther that was honest and nice?
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Superorb
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If a company pulled this bait and switch crap I'd notify the BBB and contact the NC Attorney General. I worked for FL state Gov't and our Attorney General welcomed complaints b/c that's the only way they can find out about these instances. They will keep doing this until they are forced to stop, just like car companies won't issue a recall for a defective car/part until the DOT forces them to b/c everything comes down to money. Period.
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ICEHOCEY77
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@KneeDeep 197720 wrote:Hey Rob, I have no idea of the actual numbers, but I would guess a place like Keystone, Breck, WP, or Copper has pretty wide-spread snowmaking capabilities that would rival Snowshoe.
When's the last time anyone knew a guy named Gunther that was honest and nice?
Keystone would be my guess, plus they throw up lights on all the beginner slopes for night skiing.
When's the last time anyone knew a guy named Gunther that was honest and nice?
Keystone would be my guess, plus they throw up lights on all the beginner slopes for night skiing.
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boredtoo
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@EastCoaster 197674 wrote:Which western resorts have a larger snowmaking infrastructure than somewhere like Winterplace, Snowshoe, or Wisp?
Most of the major Colorado resorts do ... for example, a place as small (in relative terms for a western resort) as Purgatory upgraded its snowmaking system for the 2008-09 season by increasing snowmaking capacity by 50% and increasing snowmaking coverage by 200 acres (on top of the acreage that was already served).
Just found this about Steamboat for 2009-10 season: "Steamboat’s state-of-the-art snowmaking system was expanded and upgraded this summer with the addition of new hydrants and 11 new low-energy, high-efficiency HKD tower guns to the resort’s arsenal. The new guns use 30 percent less energy than conventional guns, while producing the same amount of snow and are strategically placed across the base area. The resort’s snowmaking system covers nearly 400 acres of top-to-bottom terrain (3,668 vertical feet) and includes a network of over 300 available hydrants, 4 pump houses, 121 high-efficiency guns and a state-of-the-art digital operating system."
Most of the major Colorado resorts do ... for example, a place as small (in relative terms for a western resort) as Purgatory upgraded its snowmaking system for the 2008-09 season by increasing snowmaking capacity by 50% and increasing snowmaking coverage by 200 acres (on top of the acreage that was already served).
Just found this about Steamboat for 2009-10 season: "Steamboat’s state-of-the-art snowmaking system was expanded and upgraded this summer with the addition of new hydrants and 11 new low-energy, high-efficiency HKD tower guns to the resort’s arsenal. The new guns use 30 percent less energy than conventional guns, while producing the same amount of snow and are strategically placed across the base area. The resort’s snowmaking system covers nearly 400 acres of top-to-bottom terrain (3,668 vertical feet) and includes a network of over 300 available hydrants, 4 pump houses, 121 high-efficiency guns and a state-of-the-art digital operating system."